Possible new computer

[Chandler]

It was me, but I recommend the EPoX board.  The problems I had can probably be attributed to the SoundBlaster card.

I'd go for the "J" variant over the "+" as there is quite a large price difference for not much to lose (IEE1393, 2 additional SATA, additional ethernet).

[Carskick]

Okay then. It is now on my list of considerations. It is cheaper than the chaintech too, and I don't need firewire, 2 ethernets, or extra SATA.

[Chandler]

BTW the details on the EPoX page are wrong, the 9NDA3J has 8-channel ALC850 audio, same as the 9NDA3+.  I also had the "power pack" included with mine with the screwdriver and mini heatsinks.

Documentation is excellent and comes in substantial sealable bag to keep everything together.

If I have one complaint it's a trivial one - the colour!

[Carskick]

That is promicing. I noticed a Gigabyte GA-K8NSC poped up on newegg for about $10 less than the Epox. What are your thoughts on that board in comparison? Gigabyte should be a good brand, and I like the position of the power connectors better and the color. Though I like the EPOX sound better and the extra space for the AGP card. Anyone know a comparison on a pack of 939 nforce3 ultra boards? Maybe a direct comparison would make the choice easier. Price is good, but reliability and performance is better.

[Chandler]

The GA-K8NSC is a slightly older chipset, nForce3 250Gb vs nForce3 Ultra.  There is a difference somewhere but I don't know what it is as the Ultra is sometimes called the 250Gb Ultra.  I think it may just be the HT link speed in which case it's trivial.

The Gigabyte uses Marvell Ethernet rather than nVidia which you may see as either a positive or negative.  I chose a board with nVidia ethernet because it's definately PHY based rather than hung off the PCI bus whereas with Marvel et al you can't be sure.  I didn't want a Gigabit adapter sucking up the PCI bandwidth needed by my TV cards.

Gigabyte do an Ultra board which is still a little cheaper than the EPoX but not by much.

I don't know of any reviews comparing those two particular boards together, but here are some worth reading:
EP-9NDA3+
http://www.hexus.net/content/reviews/review.php?dXJsX3Jldmlld19JRD05Mjc=
http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2253
http://www.tweaktown.com/document.php?dType=review&dId=744

GA-K8NS (can't find the "C")
http://www.hexus.net/content/reviews/review.php?dXJsX3Jldmlld19JRD04MjA=

Overall the Gigabyte is better layed out, but I specifically wanted the chipset to be in a specific location so I could fit a passive cooler so I went with the EPoX.  The PHY-based Ethernet is a consideration if you're running at 1000Mbps speeds but probably not so much of an issue at 10/100Mbps.

[Carskick]

I guess I'll choose whichever seems better at the time of the purchase, but for now, I'll say I'm going with the epox.

[scuzzy]

If you get the Epox, make sure you also order a can of spray paint.   ;D

[Neon]

What's with you guys and the green hate?

Not like it makes the features better or the overclocking higher, but I think the EPoX boards look great. Those cherry red MSI boards with pastel orange, purple, green, and yellow sockets, on the other hand -  :P

[Carskick]

Honestly, the color is not too important to me. There is no acrylic window or anything so it does not matter that much. The green is very traditional, like an intel board or something. I kind of liked the ASUS yellow myself, or maybe that is just what I am used to. Anyways, I am not going to base my decission on color. I am a functional kind of guy.  ;)

[Whizbang]

Personally, I prefer Katarina Witt black.  Actually, whatever she is wearing is what I like.  Scuzzy, can I borrow your spray paint?

[Carskick]

Okay, I'm back on the new PC bandwagon. My friend is going to join me with my computer repair business, and our goal is to each earn at least $300. He buys my HP, not including the 2nd HDD and capture card for $300, and I use that plus the $300 I earned to build my new machine. Good plan?

I would need another hard drive to record video, so I was thinking, what if I bought a 160GB from Sams, as it is only $80, then mated it with the 80GB in RAID 1, using the leftover 80GB on the 160 for a single partition to record video on? Can you RAID with IDE-100, and is it worth it? Or would I just be better off with the 80GB and 160GB as seperate drives. The possibility of data loss due to RAID is of no concern, as the only thing important on my computer, music, video, documents, and pictures, are backed up at least once a month. I'm more worried about if it's worth it performance-wise, and is it possible IDE wise?


Edit: The Epox motherboard I am looking at, as well as the GIGABYTE, state that they support PATA RAID, so I guess I'm set. What are your opinions on RAID.

[Carskick]

Here is my current shopping list



I will be buying a 160GB hard drive at my local Sams Club, so after rebates, the total should be just over $600. Of course, I will use my Antec case and 350watt PSU. How's the setup, and what of RAID?

[Chandler]

The 9NDA3 does NV RAID on both SATA and IDE.

[pat]

If I were to set up a Raid array in your situation, I would use three drives. One as a stand-alone primary master. I would use this one for installing the OS and all programs, etc.
For the video storage I would then use two identical drives for the RAID 0 array.
Although for all but the most demanding tasks, I doubt you?ll really see that much improvement in speed. But what the heck, may as well give it a try, can?t hurt anything as long as you keep good backups.

The system looks good although you might want to consider something like this
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16821104103 it adds a lot of functionality to a 3.5 in drive that for the most part is rarely used.

[query]

DO NOT set up your system with RAID0 as the boot drive.  Your chances of losing data are doubled relative to running a single drive, and there is evidence from test after test that RAID 0 does little or nothing for performance on the desktop.

The ONLY time RAID 0 makes sense from a risk/reward standpoint is if you use it in RAID 0+1 format.  That is, set up two RAID 0 arrays, mirrored across the pairs.  Of course, this is expensive as it requires four drives and a dual-channel controller.

[Whizbang]

I have never seen any practical advantage for raid.  I consider it more a bragging gimmick than an actual improvement because of all the added expense for duplicating efforts.

[Bill]

Cars,
A follow-up on Pat's suggestion-  The Floppy/card reader combo requires both a USB connection and a floppy cable to be fully functional.  I recall Scuzzy commenting on this when I was trying to eliminate the floppy ribbon cable.
And there is a note in one of the reviews on Newegg.

Bill

[scuzzy]

As for the combo USB Flash Reader & Floppy Drive, Cars might be more interested in this black unit.

Bill is correct - it will still require an IDE cable to run the floppy drive. However, I strongly recommend the unit anyway, especially if you have a digital camera. The floppy drive makes an average amount of noise for a floppy, but I so rarely use the floppy that it doesn't really matter. The flash reader works pretty much as expected, and it is 100% silent. If you can hear the flash reader in operation, then it's likely you're hearing the gears spinning around in your brain.  ;D

[pat]

One more note on the Raid thing, the way I understand it is that if you use two drives that are not the same size, your array will only take advantage of the smallest, slowest drive. So if you use an 80 and a 160-gig dive you will be left with a 160-gig drive after you complete the array. I don?t believe you will be able to partition off a separate 80-gig partition from the 160. The array will also be limited to the speed of the slowest drive.
Query is right about the fault tolerance, that is why I suggested a separate drive for your OS and critical files.

On the floppy drive with the card reader, that Epox board has two USB pin headers so you should be ok with that. I didn?t notice you were getting all black drives so the black one would be a better choice. That is the same drive I just put in a system, it works very well.
I?m going to get a beige one; I will loose one of my front USB ports though since I only have one pin header. Fortunately my front USB wire has separate connectors so I can just pull one row to plug in the card read connector.

[query]

Whether RAID 0, 1, 0+1 or 5, the total size of the array is a multple of the smallest drive in the set.

I've been in positions where I had to replace a failed 4.5G drive in a RAID5 array -- no one makes drives below about 18G these days - it's kind of annoying to have to use an 18G drive, only to get 4.5G from it, but unless you replace all the drives and rebuild the array, that's what you would get.

[Carskick]

Possibility of Data loss isn't that important with this machine, the main thing is performance, and if RAID can't add much of that, or allow me to partition my 160Gig as I want, then I'll just go with the standard master slave situation.

As far as the floppy/flash, it is a good idea, but I actually already have an external USB 2.0 8in1, so it isn't necissary. Thanks for the idea though. Another thing, I primarily use xD, and it's the one format it doesn't support, so it isn't the right one for me.

I'm trying to figure out how I would partition the drives. I want the OS and games on the outside of the drives for optimal speeds, and video, pictures, and music on the inside.

I could just make each hard drive 1 big partition, or I could split them up:

160GB HDD:
5GB WinXP
125GB Games and programs
30GB Pictures & Documents

80GB HDD:
80GB video.

I'll think I'll make my 80GB just video, so if I want to transfer it and my Video capture to another machine, it will be an easy process. I could hopefully plug the drive into any other WinXP machine, and have it just work as a slave.

Also, how much space should I partition for WinXP? Is it possible to reinstall windows leaving everything else intact via this partitioning system. I guess it would just be the same as Windows repair. Any ideas on this? Thanks!


Edit: Also, my friend fell through. Due to his dad's stubborness about speding money on certain things, despite their wealth, he will not be buying my computer. I have other friends who still might want to buy it, but this will delay the building of my new computer.

[scuzzy]

5GB for Windows XP is not a good idea. I would set 8GB as an absolute minimum, although 10GB or greater is probably a better bet.

[Bill]

Cars,
2 months ago I set up a new HD with XP home. My C: drive is 13G (actually 12.5)  and with XP Home and just a few apps. there is 65% free space or about 4.5G.   used.  A 5G partition leaves little room for much else.

Bill-

[Neon]

Cars, if you want performance, why not go with a WD Raptor - fast seek times, low latency, very reliable - for the OS and games, then use your jumbo 160GB hdd for file storage.

[Carskick]

The main reason is price. Of course this way I wouldn't need the 160GB, but the 74GB Raptor costs at least $170, more than double what the 160GB at Sams costs. Raid was being considered, as it wouldn't cost extra, but I just can't afford to spend that much on the hard drive, esspecially when I'm still having problems forking out $330 for the CPU, motherboard, and RAM, which are necessities.

I was at Best Buy today, and I saw a WD 120GB IDE HDD for $100 with a $50 mail in rebate. Had it been only $50 with no rebate, I would have bought it, but I didn't have the cash to front that. I could always go back and buy it, waiting until I get the rebate to buy more stuff, doing the piece meal thing. and If I buy the hard drive and end up not using it or one of my 80GBs, I can sell them as refurbed to my customers in my computer biz. I could always get a raptor at a later date to improve perforamce, but I think getting the primary parts and a basic hard drive is more of a priority.

[query]

The problem with the retail WD (non-Raptor) drives is the short 1-year warranty.  You're better off getting an OEM unit - it won't have a stellar rebate, but will be cheaper than retail, and in the case of the 8M cache units, will have a 3-year warranty.

That, or buy a Seagate or Hitachi retail drive with rebate - they have 5 and 3 year warranties.

So do some Maxtors, but I wouldn't risk a drive from that manufacturer at the moment.

[Carskick]

If I newegg hard drives, I'll definitely go OEM, but if it is a much better deal at a store, I'll go with that.

Since no one is lined up to buy my HP, I think I'll donate it to the living room as an AV machine, leaving one hard drive, the capture, and video.  Then I'll use the newer 80GB slave as my new computer primary. Later on, I can make it a slave in my new computer, and get a raptor once they come down and I can get one for a great price. For now, I'll concentrate on getting the rest of the computer setup. I want to earn some more money first, as well as see if prices come down even more. We will see, but it is looking pretty good this time.  ;)  ;D

[Carskick]

Okay, it's pretty definite now. I've convinced myself and one parent my new computer and the transfer of my computer to the living room is a good idea. Here is my proposal.



This is the buying list. I wanted to check with you guys to see if I have everything I need. I have my Antec Case and PSU, Hard drive, and Operating system. I am buying for my new computer the motherboard, RAM, video card, DVD drive, and CPU. Am I forgeting anything?

My current computer will move to the living room except for it's CD-ROM, 56k modem, and 2nd hard drive. The wireless card and the mouse keyboard are for this computer.

I am going to put the new 80mm fan in the rear of th HP, and the one from the HP in the front of the new computer.

Does all this sound okay? Are all the cables I need included? I think I will skip the floppy for now. Bad idea? I can always borrow if desperately needed. I may throw in a $10 floppy at the last minute just to have. If anything is questionable, please let me know. I plan on making the purchase in the next few weeks.

[Bill]

Cars,
Looks good. I don't remember if your HDD is sata or IDE but I have become a fan of round cables.  They are not as easy to bend but overall I think they make for a neater installation. and improved air flow.  If the HDD is sata then a round cable for the DVD will eliminate the last ribbon.   Yes, I know the whole subject is very debatable; just my preference.  

Bill

[Carskick]

Bill, my hard drive is IDE, but I think I'll stick with ribbon cables for now. They're included anyways, and I'll try to tuck them away somehow. If they become too much of an interference, I will switch them out after the fact, but for now I'll stick with the ribbons. Thanks for the advice though.