Recommendations on basic PC build please

[Allie-Baba]

Since I MAY be having problems with either the MB or power supply on my HP Pav 8655c (Prob Installing ATI 7500 64M PCI Graphics card on Pavilion 8655c thread) and since replacing either is - well - frankly - silly, I'm thinking about scrounging some of the basic parts and building my first PC. This would be a basic rudimentary PC for my wife to do some simple tasks, email, browsing, etc. - and maybe the kids (ages 3 & 5) to play some simple games. I'm nto a big fan of on-board sound and graphics - but I understand there have been some major strides recently in these areas.

Here's probably what I have to build around:
 New WD 7200 RPM WD HDD recently installed - + an older 9G HD that
 came with the PC originally. It's starting to get noisy and my brother has
 stuff on it he wants to keep anyway.
 Scrounge the old floppy
 Scrounge Basic IDE and floppy cables
 Scrounge PCI Enternet card (unknown origin right now 10/100 I think)
 Scrounge nearly new Cheezy generic 15" monitor
 Scrounge existing HP CD-ROM (I think that the HP burner is bad
 although maybe it can be cleaned CD-ROMs and burners are farily cheap
 though)
 Scrounge Windows 98 SE currently installed on WD HDD for now
 Have a "new" in box ATI 7500 64 M PCI card -  would prefer AGP
 but it's in my posession. Maybe I COULD try and return it to WALMART
 for $50.
 Scrounge existing keyboard
 Have new mouse


Here's what I DON'T need
 Modem - have a home network


Here's what I STILL need
 Mother Board - (Graphics, Sound, Ethernet ???)
 Processor (+Cooler and FAN(s))
 Case/PSU/Fans
 Sound Card
 Probably memory - HP memory is SDRAM - new MB would probably
 DDR. I hear there are some MoBos that "go both ways" if you catch my
 drift - and that's OK ;)
 Graphics ???

Goals
 Surfing
 Email
 Eventually run XP
 Kids games


If this thing goes too far I can just pick up one of these generic Athlon systems available out there - E-machines or something for like $600 these days with almost everything except monitor. At least then I can get XP and a new warranty and don't have to set up everything. On the other hand I don't mind last years has been wizz bang that's this years so-so in the MoBo-processor area. I absolutely DO NOT need to be bleading edge.

Let the opinions begin :)

THNX
BRAD

[seiferoth10]

you can always check out ebay...

[Neon]

OK, here's a shopping list to get you started (all prices from NewEgg.com):

Motherboard
Epox EP-8RDA+ $89 nForce2 chipset, integrated sound and 10/100 network
-OR-
Abit NF7-S $124 nForce2 chipset, integrated sound, 10/100 network, Serial ATA controller (for future drive expansion)
CPU
Athlon 2500+ "Barton" 333FSB 512kB L2 cache $96
-OR-
Athlon 2600+ "Thoroughbred" 333FSB 256kB L2 cache $110
Assuming you aren't overclocking, buy the retail versions, which come with adequate HSF
RAM
Crucial PC2700 512 MB $62
case
Antec SX835 II $85
-OR-
Antec SLK3700AMB $69
Each includes 350W Antec SmartPower PSU

Finally, consider getting WinXP now. The upgrade from Win98 to WinXP has resulted in heartache for numerous people, and if you're going to build new, you may as well start with a fresh OS. Also, MS support for Win98 ends this summer. Also, you save $$ if you buy the OS with hardware, because you can buy it OEM.
WinXP SP1 OEM $93

[Allie-Baba]

Thanks neon - a few quick ones ......

1) With the newer integrated graphics chip sets - are they still sharing RAM or do they now have their own dedicated? Does it really matter?

2) Silly question - is BIOS already installed on MoBos?

3) An interesting trade-off on the Barton vs. Thoroughbred. Barton has double the L2 cache but the Tbred is relatively slightly faster - and slightly more $. Obviously it's a bit more than that.

4)  Curcial RAM - what can you say ;)

I'll consider the 98 issues - usually though one CAN get away with buying a mouse or something ;)........ is it wrong .......:^o

THNX
BRAD

[pat]

Toms Hardware just had a review of the newer Nforce chipset MB?s.
Faster and Faster, nForce2: The Latest Boards Put to the Test

Also keep in mind that there are still plenty of Motherboards available in the 65-80$ range that while not quite cutting edge are still great for a modest priced system. Also there are some great bargains on Athlon XP processors in the sub 2000 range.

I think most on-board graphic chips share system memory.

The BIOS is already installed on the Motherboard.

As for the Win 98 you have, did come on the HP? If so it may be BIOS locked to that computer and you may not be able to move it to a new one.
I would have to go with Neon and recommend XP.

[query]

Windows 98 was never BIOS-locked - that feature arrived with Windows ME and XP.  That said, if you're going to build a system of that caliber, it's a shame to saddle it with a DOS-based OS - - XP or 2000 would be a better choice.

Rather than go with a second- or third-tier board like an ABit or EPoX, you might want to pay a bit more (not much more) and go with an ASUS or MSI board.  Quite a few of the second- and third-tier board makers are on unstable financial ground, and you may find future support difficult to come by -- the Taiwan mainboard industry is ripe for consolidation, and there is going to be a shake-out of the weaker manufacturers coming very shortly.

Quite a few of these comapanies are on shaky ground -- not specifically sure about ABit and EPoX, but you might want to consider that with your purchase information.

[pat]

Windows 98 was never BIOS-locked - that feature arrived with Windows ME and XP.

Oops, my mistake. I thought all those restore Cd's were only good for the PC they came with.

[Allie-Baba]

query - what would you recommend on the ASUS/MSI lines?

THNX
BRAD

[query]

For the Athlon, the K7N8X from ASUS or the K7N2-Delta from Microstar.

If you need to economize, the VIA KT-400(A) chipset is still a decent performer.

The upside to the ASUS and MSI boards are that these (along with Gigabyte) are very popular boards, so there are plenty of places to go for help or tweaking assistance.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the second or third tier boards - but the smaller numbers sold and the weaker support sites mean you trade a bit for a lower price (now, very often, not a much lower price, either).

[Neon]

The nForce2 Asus board is A7N8X.

As far as I know, the onboard video still robs from system memory. However, memory is quite cheap now, so you can buy enough that you won't notice a large performance drop. Did I misunderstand you? Are you not going to use the Radeon 7500 PCI? The onboard video solutions are mainly nVidia GeForce4 MX chipsets, which are ok if you don't do 3D gaming. If you want to go the onboard route, we can make a few such recommendations.

query always takes umbrage at my third-tier recommendations. I have some brand loyalty, but he makes some good points. There are over a dozen mobo manufacturers, prices are low, economy is poor, product differentiation is poor. Consolidation is likely. Soltek recently announced they are leaving the US market, so don't buy Soltek.

Poasters likes Crucial so much, it's one of our favorite links over to the left of the screen. If you click there to buy, we get about $0.47. ;D However, they are not the only memory manufacturer. Mushkin, Corsair, and Kingston all make good memory.

You can certainly get away with purchasing Windows OEM with the purchase of any hardware, including something as trivial as a mouse. That is the way the OEM agreement reads, and you had better believe that if Microsoft did not want it that way, they would immediately put the squeeze on vendors. Market share is more important than price to them.

[query]

The problem the second and third tier boardmakers is the same problem faced by Quantex/Fountain in the PC market -- they are being squeezed from all sides.

ASUSTek, which had been content to stick to the high end, has introduced a couple of low-priced lines (one of them being ASRock).  And manufacturers like ASUS and Microstar are quickly branching out into other areas - MSI is now a top video card maker, and both companies have gone into manufacturing optical drives.  ASUS now makes PDAs for Palm (the Tungsten-C is made by ASUS) as well.

It used to be that smaller companies could differentiate their products - ABit used to be known for SoftBIOS and for overclocking features, for two.  Now, everyone has those features - and the majors like ASUS and Microstar also have contracts to manufacture hundreds of thousands of boards for Dell, Gateway, etc. -- meaning they can leverage production on a volume scale that the lower tier (ABit, ECS, EPoX, Iwill, Biostar, Jetway, etc.) cannot.

[Allie-Baba]

I'm not sure about using/counting on the 7500 PCI board. I'd just a soon use it as I have it. So maybe I can save a few dinero there on the moBo.  I've always kind of poo-poo'd PCI graphics but I read recently where in reality it no  longer is limited to old limits to it probably should be fine. I suppose I wouldn't mind finding a MoBo that is graphics-less and using the 7500. I need to see if I can get drivers for the 7500 for XP.

Yes I did have a problem finding the K7N8X - figured it was a typo.

One other quick question - I have all/most of the internal cables needed. Do the MoBOs come with the internal USB and Firewire cables or do I need to get them seperately if I want to support that on the front panel of the Box.

THNX
BRAD

[query]

Most boards come with cables that route to a slot bracket cover on the back of the machine for extra USB ports or firewire ports.  Your case may come with the routing cables for the front panel connector(s).

[Allie-Baba]

Given I have the 7500 PCI - should I be considering a different MoBo family? Without on-board support?

How easy is it to turn off On-bord graphics on these Mobos? Jumper/BIOS?

THNX
BRAD

[query]

Most of the nForce2 boards from ASUS and MSI do not have onboard video -- the original MSI K7N2-ILSR had it, but the K7N2-Delta-ILSR doesn't (the difference is that the newer Delta board uses the nForce2-Ultra400, which supports the new 400 MHz bus Athlons).  The ASUS A7N8X-2.0 also has the Ultra-400 chipset, but no onboard video.

On the MSI board, the onboard video can be disabled with a BIOS setting.

[Neon]

All of the mobos query and I suggested do not have integrated video, but at least the Epox, Abit, and MSI boards have the integrated video option available, just slightly different model numbers. Whichever you decide, if you want to upgrade the video card later, make sure you get a board with an AGP slot. Most except the low end budget boards will have one.

It is easy to disable onboard video. Usually it is done through the BIOS.

EDIT: query is right that MSI doesn't yet have onboard video with the nForce2 Ultra 400, but it is available on the older nForce2 chipset. It is MSI's K7N2G-L and K7N2G-ILSR models. For Epox, it is the 8RGA+, for Abit it is NF7-M

[query]

It wouldn't surprise me if MSI leaves out the onboard video as ASUS has done - very few buyers of high end boards will use it, and both companies are major manufacturers of nVidia-based AGP cards (Gigabyte, the other member of the Big Three board makers in Taiwan, is an ATI licensee).

[Allie-Baba]

I'm sure the following doesn't look real great from a formatting perspective - but it sure seems like a LOT of PC for the money. Have I forgotten anything? Left anything out? Have something mis-configured such that it won't work?

THNX
BRAD

Item   Manufacturer   Part Number   Price   New Egg Part #      Description
Case   Antec   SX835II   $84.99   N82E16811129119      
Mother Board   MSI   K7N2 Delta-ILSR retail   $135.99   N82E16813130418      
Processor   AMD   ATHLON XP 2600 retail   $110.00   N82E16819103350      AMD ATHLON XP 2600 /333 FSB PROCESSOR CPU- Retail
WinXp Pro Upgrd   Microsoft   Windows XP   $93.00   N82E16837102014      Home Edition with Service Pack 1
56x IDE CDROM   Artec   CSM-56 Retail    $17.00   N82E16827120501      56x, EIDE, DMA33
                  
                  
Memory   Crucial   CT6464Z335    $65.99         DDR PC2700 ? CL=2.5 ? Unbuffered ? Non-parity ? 6ns ? 2.5V ? 64Meg x 64
                  
      Total   $506.97         

[query]

Remember you will need two identical memory modules to use the dual-channel feature of that board.

The list seems reasonable -- though you might want to run through and make sure you don't need some other small parts like floppy drive, etc. -- which while cheap to order, are often overpriced if you have to buy at retail, or pay single-unit shipping cost for.

[Neon]

Just to expand slightly on query's comment, the nforce2 chipset has dual memory controllers, meaning that it can address two sticks of memory simultaneously. That means 2x 256MB memory sticks will outperform a single 512MB memory stick. It is not a huge performance difference. It costs more to get 2 sticks, but another advantage is in case one goes bad, you have a backup (which happened to me).

Otherwise, I think you'll have the core of a very nice system.

[iansl]

1. 90% of motherboards do not have integrated graphics.

2. Since HoTO only wanted a 'productivity' machine, why not throttle down to-say-256 megs of RAM and an Athlon XP 2200/2400+?

3a. Uh, oh. AMD has dual channel???

3b. How can you use that with only a 400-MHz FSB (max)?

3c. I mean, DDR400 will fit just fine, right?

3d. Also, in my understanding, 256 MB (2x128) of DC DDR333 would be like 128 MB of DC DDR666. Am I wrong on this?  

3e. Also, I'm wondering if you have to use DC ram, or whether you can just use 2 identical sticks without the DC name and price jump ($10-$20, I think)?

3f. Also, do you HAVE to use 2 sticks, like RDRAM, or can you use just one?

3g. Also, is there any DC DDR266 out, if you can't just use, well, if the answer to 3e is no?

I hope you like my formatting. :)

WAIT!!!

4. Only a small portion of integrated graphics is GeForce4 MX. Some is Via ProSavage8, some is Intel Extreme. I know that Extreme comes with NO AGP slot, but what about this new Extreme 2? How does it compare on performance?

Maybe this poast was to just get back onto the computer and off of motherboards. I honestly don't know. :) :) :)

iansl

[query]

1.  Most boards don't have integrated graphics, but a significant proportion do - particularly those sold as OEM and to system integrators.

2.  XP runs better in 512 MBytes RAM, and the cost difference is only about $25-30 per 256 MBytes.

3.  Dual-channel DDR arrived for Athlon first (nVidia and ATI chipsets) and P4 later.  The memory bandwidth is effectively doubled by interleaving two banks (like RAID 1 on a drive subsystem).  Yes, DDR-400 is fine - in fact, except for the very fastest Athlon 3200+, DDR-333 is fine, too.  No, 256 MBytes is 256 MBytes, whether Dual-channel or single.  It's not like a drive mirror (RAID0) where you lose 50% capacity.  All that is needed is a pair of identical modules.  

4.  All of Intel's integrated graphics are poor 3D performers.  Even nVidia's is low-end relative to any mid-range AGP card.

[iansl]

OK! Thanks! Yes, except for the XP 3200+ the FSB won't even support-er-use DDR400 as DDR400. So why would you use DC on an Athlon, as DDR333 seems to be the fastest most Athlon's buses can handle, and some can only handle 266?

[Neon]

use of dual memory channels is determined by the chipset architecture (nForce2) and onboard memory controller, not by the speed rating of the memory itself.

On many boards, it is possible to run asynchronously, meaning that the FSB and memory bus run at different speeds. However, most agree that this results in performance lags in the nForce2.

It is also possible to increase the FSB out of recommended specification. This is called overclocking. When matched with appropriately fast memory, it results in performance gains.