Apple/WinTel

[Rubicone]

I know someone who is seriously considering purchasing one of Apple's Laptop rather than a WinTel based one. What are the advantanges/disadvantages of one over the other? Additionally, if an Apple is eventually chosen what factors should one consider in purchasing one that is new rather than one that is not so new?

[wonderings]

Big Advatange is no viruses, no spyware, no adware. HUGE BONUESES in my book. If they do buy, I would highley recommend at least 512 mb ram, but dont buy from apple, they are way to expensive for ram. If they are looking for used, be warry of the G3 iBooks, they have had a load of logic board problems (I guess that would be the motherboad in pc speak) Other then that they are great. As you can tell from my signature I use Macs a bit. So any questions regarding anything apple, please ask or pm away!

[query]

One other major advantage - you can actually use one on your lap - they don't generate anywhere near the level of heat most Pentium and Athlon based notebooks do.

The G4 CPUs beat even the Intel Pentium-M in that regard.

In Apple's defense, they're covering the logic board problems out of warranty.  Dell has similar problems with some of its current systems, and HPaq has had major drive reliability issues with some of its systems - neither has stepped up to offer any kind of post-warranty support.

[wonderings]

Yes Apple is covering it, but its still a hassle I would want to avoid. Just remember if they do go with Apple, RAM RAM RAM, get as much as you can afford, you wont regret it. I personally would not use less then 512

[query]

1G isn't excessive, particularly if you're going to run VirtualPC and XP.  I just got a new iMac G4-1.6 with 1G (actually, 20 of them) - they run quite well with 1G, even with VP7/XP.

[wonderings]

I assume you  mean a iMac G5 1.6, those are sweet machines

[query]

Sorry - yes, G5-1.6, 17"

Nicely engineered on the inside - quiet running and very polished.

We'll see how well they stand up in the computer lab - that's usually a very good test of things.

[wonderings]

Also some one of the best looking computers out their.

[Carskick]

I was talking to some Mac people who were talking about how cool they run. pple supposedly tries to minimize fan usage and heat. That's supposedly why the G5 notebook hasn't come out yet, they haven't made one that runs cool enough.

As long as your not gamming and can afford it, the Mac is a great choice. In addition to at leat 512MB of RAM for either XP or OS10, try to get a hard drive faster than 4200RPM. I don't know the Apple offerings, but for a PC, the 5400RPMs are readily available, and there are 7200RPMs out there for a premium. The 4200RPM hard drive can kill a high performance laptop's speed.

Here are some reasons I can think of to go Mac or PC

Mac laptop
-Very good for audio/video editing
-Runs cool and quietly
-fairly stable, I wouldn't call OS10 extremely stable, probably similar to XP, but better than 98 and ME
-Very few Spyware worries, and fewer virus worries.
-Tech support that's not run from India

PC laptop
-Compatable with more software
-Much better for gamming
-More choices for hardware
-More people know how to use them
-Windows or Linux

As far as battery life, that depends on which one you choose. Both Macs and PCs are avaiable with 1hr battery life to 5hr battery life.

[wonderings]

Fewer viruses is an understatement   :P And regarding the HD's. I can go buy any HD, There are no mac specific HD's that I know of, you just have to formate them. So thats not really an issue. As one who uses XP and OS X daily at work (commercial print shop) I would say OS X is far more stable then XP. XP is going to put grey hairs on my head by the time I am 26! Regarding gaming is completely true. There are games out there for the mac, some really good games to. But if your a hardcore gamer, then the PC is your best choice. And regarding choice, you can put Linux on a mac. Lots of people do this. So you have Mac OSX or Linux. If your friend is looking for a Powerbook, check out the backlit keyboards, they are incredible. The automatically detect when its dark and turn on. No bulky usb light attachment hanging over your keyboard! What you really have to find out is, what is your friends needs in the computer.

[query]

You can add to the PC - cheaper, at least up front.  If you don't do your own tech support,  you can easily wind up spending more on a PC - many places now charge up to a couple of hundred dollars to do a spyware/virus removal, for instance.

You can also add to the Mac side - more stable OS - FAR more stable OS - there's no comparison.   OS-X is as far beyond XP in stability as XP is from Windows 98.

There's a market out there for people who want to use their PCs to edit videos, photos, record television - that is, convergence applications.  Apple needs to market to it - many people would be willing to pay a bit more for a low-maintenance platform like a Mac running OS-X, and who are fed up with incessant malware attacks on Windows.

OS-X is built on a truly multiuser, truly multitasking operating system, that was designed from the ground up to allow multiple threads to run.  Windows as we know it evolved from a single-user, single-tasking operating system that was designed to be easy to use.  Period.  It was never designed for security, and all the patching Microsoft has managed, seems to have served only to make things worse and worse.

Ironically, Microsoft had a choice - it was called OS/2.  It chose marketability over technology, and now we're stuck with the results.

And yes, there is Linux for PowerPC - Yellow Dog, to name one distribution.

And if you can't live without your PC applications, MS will happily sell you a copy of VirtualPC, which will let you run XP under OS-X (and ironically enough, when XP blue-screens under it, OS-X hums merrily along).

[wonderings]

well put query. The VPC  made me laugh, I was my local mac dealer a while ago, and I was trying out VPC to see what it was like, and sure enough I have the blue screen of death. Its not often that you see the blue screen of death on a 17inch Widescreen Powerbook!

[Carskick]

The comment on the hard drives was not to say that macs need specific hard drives. I'm trying to give buying assitance to Rubicone, who this thread is trying to help. Any modern laptop, PC or Mac, is burtal with a 4200RPM hard drive. As for the hard drive, do the laptop hard drive connectors fit the apple laptops?

Also, I am basing XP=OS10 in stability based on personal experience. Assuming that your XP system is spyware free, of course, but that's a different issue. I have had a number of freezes and crashes on OS10 computers I've used. The ammount of total time used to crash ratio is about the same for XP and OS10 in my experience. Others may have differing experiences, but these are mine.

BTW, Wonderings, the blue screen of death has been discarded in windows, and has been replaced with error reporting messages, so I you wouldn't see them on XP systems, either.  ;)



Remember guys, this poast is to help Rubicone choose a laptop.

[query]

If the blue screen has been discarded, it's news to me - I've seen it even on fully up to date Windows XP machines running SP2.  if you followed the electronics expo this week, you know that Mr. Gates had a lot of trouble with his company's product in a very public forum.  Steve Jobs had some trouble as well, but not to the same degree.

Apple notebooks use standard 2.5" 9.5 mm drives.  On some of them, they're actually easy to change - on others, well -- let's just say the designers followed the Rube Goldberg scheme of mounting.  However, they're no worse than changing the drive on some of the HPaq notebooks I've seen.

Any OS can crash - but while I would easily recommend OS-X Server for mission-critical applications, I wouldn't do the same for Windows Server 2003.  There's no comparison in stability - OS-X server can sit there, day after day, without attention.  Server2003, you'll be rebooting at least once every couple of weeks - particularly if it's running something like DNS or DHCP.  The same extends to the desktop with OS-X Panther vs. Windows XP.

Never, ever send Windows to do a true server's work.

Tiger is due soon (OS-X 10.4) - as Mr. Jobs says, "Long before Longhorn".

[Rubicone]

This person has very basic computing needs and is no gamer. The laptop will be used for e-mail, word-processing, Internet browsing, looking at pics (from vacation and parties), utilities to maintain and secure the computer. Nothing really that is going to tax the OS or hardware that it is running on. In light of this does Apple provide with their OS software to perform these functions? If not what is available as freeware/shareware? Also, can someone provide some info on the versions of MAC OS one should consider (wait until Tiger comes out?), the price range for the laptop and where to go for a good deal.

[query]

Panther comes with a robust firewall, and you can get a good, free antivirus package without resorting to Norton (www.clamav.com).  AppleWorks comes with the Mac and is probably good enough for home use -- word processing, spreadsheet, etc.  If you need more, OpenOffice is available, again for free, for Mac OS X.

Prices on Macs don't vary that much from Apple's own, though look for specials.  Two good sources:  MacConnection (www.macconnection.com) and J & R in NYC (www.jandr.com). Apple has an online store and physical stores in many major metro areas.

if you are a  student or educator, go through Apple's site - they usually knock $100 or more off the prices of the stock configurations.

[Rubicone]

1. What is Panther?
2. Are AppleWorks/OpenOffice capable of opening MS Office files?
3. Is there an e-mail client for POP mail?

[query]

Panther is the code name for OSX.3.

I haven't used AppleWorks in a while, but OpenOffice can indeed work with MS Office files.

Yes, there's an excellent Mac mail client built into OS-X.  It is capable of connecting to almost any type of email server.

There are plenty of other email clients for Mac OS-X as well.

[wonderings]

Apple works will open up word files. I do it all the time. The built in Mail program from Apple is called "Mail" and works very well. It also has an amazing spam filter. It learns from you what is spam. I never get spam anymore, its awsome!

[Carskick]

So there are blue screens in XP? That's intresting, as in my two years of using the OS on many machines, I have never gotten one.  :o

If not discarded, they have been dramaticly reduced from the Win98 days.

Rubicone, it seems either a mac or PC would work just fine for your friend. I'd reccomend he try both OSes and see which one he likes best. If you do go Windows, remember to get him adequet spyware protection before going online, yes a disadvantage of Windows. Microsoft is apperantly working on their own anti-spyware program, which I believe is downloadable as a beta right now. I'd guess their next OS will have anti-spyware built in, and will hopefully be more internally stable and immune, but I wouldn't count on it being perfect.

[query]

Yes, XP will blue screen - all it takes is a user visiting the wrong website using Internet Explorer.  In two seconds, spyware hits and the system tanks.  It's that bad.

No OS is perfect, but MS's attempt at spyware repair seems to be a very rough beta, and it looks as though it will not be available other than as an extra-cost package, which makes Spybot and AdAware more appealing anyway.

Microsoft knows that the only way to save WIndows security wise is a complete architecture change - which will remove some of the ease of use of the OS - and it has to decide how much it will forego with the new release where backward compatibility is concerned.

Don't be surprised to find that Longhorn requires replacing most of your current software as well - if MS does this with an eye toward security, it will be as major a shift as OS-X was for Apple - and unlike Apple, which could use an OS-9 compatibility mode, Microsoft has to pitch that out with the trash if it means to produce a security-conscious result.

[Carskick]

But if they start from scratch again, won't it be likely full of holes...again, thus easy to exploit. There is software that can prevent spyware, such as spywareblaster, by programming IE and Mozilla not to accept certain spyware, visit certain sites, etc. If something like this was integrated or bundled with windows, then the average person could have protection as well. Maybe a redesign of just IE would help things as well. I guess I can say that XP is as stable as OS-X as long as you have good spyware and virus defence. XP does have more memory leaks, though.

All in all, neither are perfect, and both could use revisions, but Windows primary weakness can be fixed with certain 3rd party software, freeware even, thus it is possible to keep secure.

[query]

That's where we disagree.  Windows, at its core, is impossible to secure because of the open way the DLLs and kernel pass data behind the scenes.  You can patch it to your heart's content, run every third-party tool you want and it still won't be secure, just as you can build a house in Florida from the most robust materials you can buy, and it won't stand up if a sinkhole opens up in the marshland below it.  Windows is quicksand at its core.

The "average" Windows user does not have the skill set necessary to keep Windows running safely.  The rapid spread of the endless successions of malware that is released daily is testment to that.

Windows, quite simply, in the hands of an average user, is the single best malware replication platform ever introduced.

It is not impossible to keep Windows running well - but it is well above the average user's skill set to do so.  For all its ease of use, it's one of the most difficult operating systems to troubleshoot and keep running in tune.  It should be made clear that when you buy a Windows system, you are not buying a Toyota, where you could almost lock the hood shut and run the car forever.  You're buying the equivalent of an old Renault or FIAT - constant maintenance, tuneups and breakdowns.

In network settings, XP is nowhere near as stable as OS-X, and Server 2003 doesn't hold a candle to X Server.  

I teach in a department that's about 70% Mac and 30% Windows, and do a lot of troubleshooting and problem solving.  90% of that is on Windows machines - and 10% or less on the Macs.

Yes, the cost of entry into Dell-compatible is lower (I'll omit IBM compatible, since they're getting out of the PC business).  The cost of STAYING in that realm is higher in the long run.

[trav]

I have been running my Windows machine for over 2 years. No problems. I run AntiVirus ocasionally, no viruses. The only think is spyware, but i have adaware for that. Other than spyware, and the ocasional goofy thing (see desktop help forums) it runs very smooth and nice for me.

[wonderings]

I have been running my mac OS X since its birth with no virus, no spyware, no adware, and no software to even check. On my work PC XP Pro, which does very little on the web, I am constantly finding spyware and adware. I have to check once every 2 days. The problem with windows is the integration with internet explorer. I dont know all the tech specs, but it seems like query covered it pretty good

[Carskick]

Yes Query, that was a great explanation. It would be optimal if they could do a good redesign without forming new holes we would be complaining about. Making a few fixes in windows, similar to what 3rd party software does may not entirely fix windows vurnerabilities, but it certainly will help.

[query]

Sometimes.  Other times, the fixes just expose more holes.

The only solution will be a ground-up rewrite that removes the very open exchange of data behind the scenes between the program files and their support structure (DLL, OCX files, etc.).

And MIcrosoft HAS to do something about the mixing of executable code being mixed with data - both in the registry and inside files themselves.

Of course, when it does this, it will have a very hard time maintaining the ease of use that Windows has built its reputation on - in other words, MS may lost most of its marketing edge in the process.

[Carskick]

They wouldn't be the first company to ever make such a sacrifice. If they did lose some ease of use, they could market it's security, if they indeed made it more secure. When Microsoft was original designing early Operating Systems, they didn't have to worry about these type of things. Now they do, but not much has changed in the functioning in windows. The only main change they made was the shift from the DOS based to the NET based.

[query]

Microsoft did not design DOS, though - it bought it.  

Here's the problem:

Say you're a software developer.  Microsoft totally rewrites Windows.  You now have a choice of redoing all your applications for the New Windows, or supporting a different platform with a better track record.  Which do you do?

Or,

You're a PC owner, who's invested thousands in software and hardware peripherals.  MS releases a new, secure WIndows that's not backward compatible.  To use it, you have to replace all your hardware, and buy all new software.  What do you do?

Or,

You're an IT manager, who has sunk millions or billions into an infrastructure product based on the "old" Windows.  MIcrosoft's new release will break it all and require a ground-up rewrite of everything?

If Microsoft does what it must do - secure WIndows - and has to take the action is must take - making things at best less compatible, and at worst totally incompatible with existing Windows - it will drive more people toward alternatives.

Unfortunately, the alternative is the morass we're in now.  

Between the worms, viruses, trojans and spyware, there are a lot of people digging a grave for Microsoft - it will have to pull off almost a miracle to avoid winding up six feet under.

[Carskick]

Exactly. Very well put. Microsoft is in a large conunudrum. They either have to continue to patch backward compatible Windows, Form an entirely new windows which is not, or optimally, but most difficultly, recreate a windows that is still compatible with most old hardware and software. It seems that it would be possible to do a thorough redesign, and manufactures of hardware and software could redo their drivers to cooperate with the new Windows. Though MS would have to spend quite a bit of time and money not only creating the new OS, but assisting the hardware and software manufactures in creating new drivers that would make their products fully compatible. With as large scale as windows is, it would easily cost trillions of dollars, and years of time for microsoft to do an entire transition and still keep it user friendly. I guess we'll see how they decide to do it. Hopefully a better solution will present itself to MS in the next 10 years.

For now, it's either patching Windows, or utalizing Linux or Mac OS.