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Incomplete shutdown

Started by John Smith, June 02, 2005, 14:36 hrs

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John Smith

I recently installed Windows XP home on my PIII 450 instead of Windows 98SE that has been on it since we got the system. Now when I shut down, it is only going up to the "It is now safe to shut down your computer" screen and stopping there. I know that older computers (such as my 486 w/ win98) behave this way, but the PIII used to shut down normally with Win98, and thus I think it should also do so with WinXP. Also, in these situations, when I try to shut down using the power button, nothing happens. I have to hold it down for ~3 seconds to force it to turn off. Any ideas about what's going on?
Athlon 64 3200+ Winchester | Asus A8V Deluxe | 2 x 512 Mb KVR PC3200 DC | MSI NX6600GT AGP 8X | WD 200GB SATA | LG GSA-4163B DVD+/-R DL | LG GDR8163B DVD-ROM | Generic floppy drive | Antec SmartPower 450W | Nikao 2750 Case | Samsung 712N Silver LCD Monitor | Logitech X-230 2.1 Speakers

query

Check to make sure ACPI is still enabled in BIOS setup.  If it has changed spontaneously to off, replace the CMOS battery.

John Smith

I checked the BIOS and it was disabled. Although I do not recall having disabled it, I know that I changed some of the BIOS settings when I was trying to install Windows XP. Now I enabled ACPI, but the problem remains. I checked the BIOS again to make sure that it is still enabled, and it is. Any ideas about what else I can try?

Aside, I currently have L2 cache and video BIOS shadow disabled. This was recommened by Windows when it was crashing very often. With those items disabled, the system is stable, but also quite slow. While I was trying to figure out why the system was unstable I scanned the system memory and found that one of the three modules had many errors, and so I removed that module. That seemed to help. I wonder, can the CPU's internal memory (cache) develop errors?
Athlon 64 3200+ Winchester | Asus A8V Deluxe | 2 x 512 Mb KVR PC3200 DC | MSI NX6600GT AGP 8X | WD 200GB SATA | LG GSA-4163B DVD+/-R DL | LG GDR8163B DVD-ROM | Generic floppy drive | Antec SmartPower 450W | Nikao 2750 Case | Samsung 712N Silver LCD Monitor | Logitech X-230 2.1 Speakers

Carskick

When I installed Windows XP on my K6-2, it had an error, and would not let me continue the installation unless I turned ACPI off. Curious...
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pat

Have you checked the manufacturer of your motherboard for BIOS updates? You may need one to run XP on a system of that vintage. I have an older system that would not run XP correctly until I updated the BIOS.
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Carskick

Well it did work once I turned of ACPI, but installing there was just a test. That computer won't be used again for a long while.
Athlon64 X2 3800+ Machester@2.45Ghz, 4x1GB A-DATA PC3200@204(2.5-3-3-6), XFX 8800GT, ASUS A8N5X NF4, Antec 300 case, Antec EarthWatts 650w, 640GB 16MB and 200GB 8MB 7200RPM SATA WD HDDs, NEC3540, NEC3550, Windows 7 64-bit Ultimate<br />Photos: http://picasaweb.google.com/Carskick

rajm

I have read somwhere that Ram and cache problems could be due a heavily fragmented HD. This can lead to system hangs.  

Whizbang

I always do at least two defrags during an XP and programs installation and another when I finish the session.  Even when the message window says that I do not need to defrag, I have found it not to be a reliable analysis at all.  XP is much more forgiving than 98, but not immune.

John Smith

#8
I was reading around on the internet and found this:

When Windows XP won?t powerdown automatically, the APM/NT Legacy Power Node may not be enabled. To enable this, right-click on the My Computer icon, click Properties | Hardware | Device Manager | View. Check the box labeled ?Show Hidden Devices.? If it?s available on your computer, there will be a red X on the APM/NT Legacy Node. Try enabling it and see if this resolves the powerdown problem (Tip from Terri Stratton). Or, to check the other side of the APM/ACPI coin, open the Power Options applet in Control Panel. If there is an APM tab, make sure the ?Enable Advanced Power Management Support? box is checked

I tried the first suggestion and it worked! Now the computer shuts down completely on its own.

--Windows XP installation was in fact crashing when I was trying to install, but when I disabled the L2 cache and video BIOS shadow, it managed to pull through with no errors, although the screen did black out a few times. It did not mention anything about enabling/disabling APCI.

--No, I haven't checked for BIOS upgrades for my motherboard. I am sure there must be some since I have never done such an update before. I am quite unfamiliar with BIOS updates. I guess it would be worth a shot, though. Are they free? My motherboard is made by QDI, but I'm not sure of the model name. (I think it was something like BrillianX 8V)

--I formatted before installing XP and then defragmented the HD after the installation and a few program installations. I have continued to defrag it often, so I don't think that should be a problem right now.

--Any ideas on whether cache memory can go bad?
Athlon 64 3200+ Winchester | Asus A8V Deluxe | 2 x 512 Mb KVR PC3200 DC | MSI NX6600GT AGP 8X | WD 200GB SATA | LG GSA-4163B DVD+/-R DL | LG GDR8163B DVD-ROM | Generic floppy drive | Antec SmartPower 450W | Nikao 2750 Case | Samsung 712N Silver LCD Monitor | Logitech X-230 2.1 Speakers

Whizbang

Generally, BIOS updates are free unless the mainboard is no longer supported and someone is trying to make a few bucks by charging for a download.  Unless you have specific instructions in hand for updating the BIOS, I would not attempt it.  There are two extremes with a BIOS update.  It is either successful and works as intended or you do not explicitly follow the instructions and wipe out any ability to boot up.  Memory caches can go bad just like any other piece of hardware, although I do not remember any specific reference to that because a modern cache is in the CPU itself and would simply be classified as a bad CPU were the cache to be at fault.  Do you have a reason for suspecting that as a problem?

Incidentally, that was some very good analytical problem solving.

John Smith

My suspicion is based on the following observation: When L2 cache, L2 ECC, and Video BIOS shadowing were enabled, the XP installation was crashing frequently. Even when I did manage to complete the installation after several crash/reboot routines, the system was unstable, in that it would randomly crash while doing very simple tasks such as opening a browser, etc. Then I decided to disable those options in the BIOS and again attempted the XP install. This time things went much better. After a few days of installing programs without crashes and noting the system's general stability, I decided to re-enable those BIOS options to see what will happen. Merely a few minutes later, the system crashed. I got the usual "IRQL_LESS_OR_NOT_EQUAL" error messages. Since then the computer has crashed a few times while trying to open a browser, etc. although not as much as it used to before when the options were enabled the first time. (Perhaps this is because one of the system's memory modules was previously found to be full of errors and has since been removed.) In any case, this is the reason why I'm wondering about the L2 cache's role in these problems. Given this information, does anyone have some insight into the problem?

As a side note, the system has been slowed down quite a bit with the removal of 128 megs of Ram (now it has 256 MB total RAM vs 384 MB before) and the disabling of the L2 cache.
Athlon 64 3200+ Winchester | Asus A8V Deluxe | 2 x 512 Mb KVR PC3200 DC | MSI NX6600GT AGP 8X | WD 200GB SATA | LG GSA-4163B DVD+/-R DL | LG GDR8163B DVD-ROM | Generic floppy drive | Antec SmartPower 450W | Nikao 2750 Case | Samsung 712N Silver LCD Monitor | Logitech X-230 2.1 Speakers

Whizbang

#11
As I understand XP, the video Shadowing BIOS feature is ignored because it is bypassed in favor of the video card's driver.  I would uncheck that option to see if it clears up the problem.

If I had thoroughly read your response, I would have seen your suspicions clearly.  Chalk it up to laziness, not senility.   :-[


John Smith

Oops, a little correction to make: when I re-enabled the BIOS option I only enabled the L2 cache and the L2 ECC, and NOT video BIOS shadowing. That is, shadowing BIOS feature has not been enabled since I disabled it the first time.
Athlon 64 3200+ Winchester | Asus A8V Deluxe | 2 x 512 Mb KVR PC3200 DC | MSI NX6600GT AGP 8X | WD 200GB SATA | LG GSA-4163B DVD+/-R DL | LG GDR8163B DVD-ROM | Generic floppy drive | Antec SmartPower 450W | Nikao 2750 Case | Samsung 712N Silver LCD Monitor | Logitech X-230 2.1 Speakers

Whizbang

If you want to activate L2 cache, you will need to set it manually for it to function correctly:

L2

pat

Here is a link to the BIOS updates for that brand of motherboard; I don?t see any updates that indicate compatibility with XP.
I?m not sure though of your exact model, I tried to sort it out by the processor. But I think Intel made the P3 450 in both a slot one and a socket 370.

Slot1 Boards
Socket 370 Boards
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John Smith

Whizbang, thank for the link. I followed the intructions therein and found that the value of the L2 cache was set to 0 in the XP registry. I changed it to 512 (decimal value). So far I haven't noticed much of a difference in performance, but I'll be especially alert for the next few days about any changes in either performance or stability.

pat, thanks for the research. Using Everest, I deduced that my PIII 450 uses a slot 1. By visual inspection, I can confirm that the motherboard is a BrillianX 8V. This is printed in a corner of the board. Near the center it says Legend QDI. I also looked through the links you gave for any upgrades, but found nothing specifically for this model.
Athlon 64 3200+ Winchester | Asus A8V Deluxe | 2 x 512 Mb KVR PC3200 DC | MSI NX6600GT AGP 8X | WD 200GB SATA | LG GSA-4163B DVD+/-R DL | LG GDR8163B DVD-ROM | Generic floppy drive | Antec SmartPower 450W | Nikao 2750 Case | Samsung 712N Silver LCD Monitor | Logitech X-230 2.1 Speakers

John Smith

With the L2 cache enabled, the system has remained stable about a week now. I haven't had any freeze-ups lately until now, when I tried to install Nero Express from a CD. I get the usual IRQL_LESS_OR_NOT_EQUAL error message, which suggests that I disable BIOS caching and shadowing. I have two optical drives, and I tried the installation from each one, but the same problem persists. Any ideas?
Athlon 64 3200+ Winchester | Asus A8V Deluxe | 2 x 512 Mb KVR PC3200 DC | MSI NX6600GT AGP 8X | WD 200GB SATA | LG GSA-4163B DVD+/-R DL | LG GDR8163B DVD-ROM | Generic floppy drive | Antec SmartPower 450W | Nikao 2750 Case | Samsung 712N Silver LCD Monitor | Logitech X-230 2.1 Speakers

Whizbang

OK, I am propping my eyelids open with toothpicks to finish this, so please forgive if I have overlooked something here.

1)  Is XP updated on all issues?
2)  Are you trying to install InCD also?
3)  Did you dump all the taskbar activated programs first before attempting the install?

John Smith

1) Yes, XP is updated.
2) No, I was not trying to install InCD at this time. In fact, in some cases it crashed even before the installer came to the screen where I select what to install. Btw, is there something wrong with InCD?
3) No, I hadn't exited all the active programs.  :-[ I tried again after I exited all active programs in the taskbar, except for ZA. This time the installation was more successful, but it still crashed at the end of the install. (I think it is mostly installed, since it is listed in Add/Remove, but it didn't place a shortcut on the desktop, and I didn't get to the "installation successful" part.

I noticed that even though I may get different error messages when it crashes, when I "Send an error report" it always says that it was a device driver issue. At one time it mentioned that it could be a graphics driver issue, but I did recently update the Nvidia drivers. This computer has a PNY GeForce 4 MX 440 installed.

I should also mention that I have HollywoodMagic's DVD Plus hardware installed on a PCI slot. I have not yet installed its drivers because the last time I tried (for the first time under XP), the system crashed during/after the installation.
Athlon 64 3200+ Winchester | Asus A8V Deluxe | 2 x 512 Mb KVR PC3200 DC | MSI NX6600GT AGP 8X | WD 200GB SATA | LG GSA-4163B DVD+/-R DL | LG GDR8163B DVD-ROM | Generic floppy drive | Antec SmartPower 450W | Nikao 2750 Case | Samsung 712N Silver LCD Monitor | Logitech X-230 2.1 Speakers

Whizbang

#19
InCD occasionally will conflict with other programs while loading onto the taskbar.  I usually do not install it because Windows has a default option to install the Roxio CD read if it is needed and pops a window up to that regard.  I just like to adopt the K.I.S.S. principle for my limited grey matter.  I do suspect that there is a conflict that is preventing successful installation because I have never had any trouble with Nero.  I will check around a bit while others to contribute to your effort.

Whizbang

How much RAM do you have onboard?  Bad RAM or insufficient RAM has been reported to generate this error message on a large DVD burn.  Since that is also not an IRQ issue, the same symptoms could point to RAM starvation or error.  Nero is a biggie and could consume a lot during installation.

John Smith

I have 256 MB of RAM installed, and I have run Memtest with no problems. I used to have another stick of 128 MB installed (and the system was faster then) but I found it to be full of errors, so I removed it. I will be replacing it in the near future.
Athlon 64 3200+ Winchester | Asus A8V Deluxe | 2 x 512 Mb KVR PC3200 DC | MSI NX6600GT AGP 8X | WD 200GB SATA | LG GSA-4163B DVD+/-R DL | LG GDR8163B DVD-ROM | Generic floppy drive | Antec SmartPower 450W | Nikao 2750 Case | Samsung 712N Silver LCD Monitor | Logitech X-230 2.1 Speakers

Whizbang

256 is bare minimum for XP, and with a burner being installed, you may be hitting the shoulders on that road.  I would guess that you need to have at least another 256 on board before you could tame this one.  The problem is that every time you install another program of any complexity, it generally also installs a startup applet that is always running and consuming yet more memory.  My Task Manager looks like a Wal-Mart shopping list with so many applets running that I would have no idea what I could stop without running the thing into a ditch.  If you can narrow the list to the bare essentials, you might be able to sneak this one in under the wire on an install, but you definitely will have memory starvation down the road somewhere.  ( I have to stop watching NASCAR with my wife; it is polluting my English).   :P

scuzzy

Sorry I'm late on this, but I still want to share this valuable link with you:

Windows XP Shutdown Troubleshooter

You may find the solution there.
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John Smith

Unfortunately 384MB of RAM is the maximum on this motherboard. I know that 256 is really minimal, but I thought it would mainly cause a slowdown in the system, not crashes during installations. But what you're saying makes sense, since this is not the only installation it has crashed on. I guess the RAM upgrade is more essential than I thought.

As for the running "services" or processes, they seem overly abundant and mysterious in XP. At least in Win 98, I knew what I could safely turn off, but in XP I simply don't know what is needed and what isn't. Is there a list somewhere of those essentials? However, I'm not too keen on "tweaking" this system too much; I need it to be stable, because my dad uses it for his work.  
Athlon 64 3200+ Winchester | Asus A8V Deluxe | 2 x 512 Mb KVR PC3200 DC | MSI NX6600GT AGP 8X | WD 200GB SATA | LG GSA-4163B DVD+/-R DL | LG GDR8163B DVD-ROM | Generic floppy drive | Antec SmartPower 450W | Nikao 2750 Case | Samsung 712N Silver LCD Monitor | Logitech X-230 2.1 Speakers

pat

Windows XP really taxes older hardware, if your dad needs the system for work, you may want to consider Windows 2000. It?s been around longer and is more compatible with older hardware.
SeaSonic S12 550W, Athlon 64 X2 6000+, Asus M2N SLI-Deluxe, nvidia 9600 GSO, 2x2 gig Crucial Ballistix, LG DVD/RW, 2x Western Digital Black Edition 640gb,  SAMSUNG 226BW Black 22", Canon PIXMA MP600,  Logitech X-230 speakers, Logitech Comfort Duo keyboard & Mouse, Windows 7 64 Home Premium & Vista 64

Neon

There are numerous Windows XP services tweak guides - you can search Google to find them. Here is one:
http://www.techspot.com/tweaks/winxp_services/index.shtml
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John Smith

Oh, thanks for the link, scuzzy. I was just rereading the thread and realized I hadn't seen your poast.  That link is great. Incidentally, it turns out that the advice that solved the shutdown problem (and which I quoted above) came from there.

pat, I suppose Windows 2000 would be better for this older system, but I really don't want to spend more than I have to on this computer, especially since I already have XP. Hopefully, the problems will be ironed out. I do like XP and noticed that many people with similar hardware run it with no problems.

Neon, thanks for the link. I'll have to look at XP tweaks more in depth. I tried googling for them and indeed there are many. Is it recommended and safe to tweak? I guess it all depends...

Finally, here is some more information that may help us make some headway. First of all, the majority of the crashes are attributed to device drivers. I checked the Device Manager, and the Multimedia Controller (the Hollywood Magic hardware) had the exclamation mark beside it. I expected this since I have not installed its drivers. Previously, I tried installing its XP drivers, but they are not signed and so Windows gave its usual warnings. After the installation, the system was crashing a lot, although I'm not sure if it was due to those drivers. All this was before my most recent XP install. So for now, I disabled the Multimedia Controller. Perhaps it would also be useful to mention that I have the SoundBlaster Live! sound card installed, but I have not installed its drivers. I checked in Device Manager and the default MS drivers are installed.
Athlon 64 3200+ Winchester | Asus A8V Deluxe | 2 x 512 Mb KVR PC3200 DC | MSI NX6600GT AGP 8X | WD 200GB SATA | LG GSA-4163B DVD+/-R DL | LG GDR8163B DVD-ROM | Generic floppy drive | Antec SmartPower 450W | Nikao 2750 Case | Samsung 712N Silver LCD Monitor | Logitech X-230 2.1 Speakers